This is the power of geospatial – it empowers us to ask multi-disciplinary questions, collaborate and take real climate action.

Sunny Fleming is Esri’s industry lead for public sector environment. Throughout her career, she has applied GIS concepts and technology to environmental policy, conservation, and natural resources; from monitoring species in the field to helping state parks manage assets and assess their economic impacts. She continues to pursue her passion for the environment by helping industry leaders streamline and improve their work with GIS technology, whether in the field or in the office, and whether setting policy or managing wildlife and resources. Her academic background is in botany and plant ecology, being a proud graduate of UT Chattanooga. She’s chased lemurs in Madagascar trying to collect their poop, repelled into sinkholes in Appalachia to count ferns, and scrambled shale cliff faces that hadn’t been explored since the 1800’s. She resides in Nashville, TN with her husband Chris- an environmental consultant – and their two dogs Elsie and Alex.

Q. First off – Where are you located on earth?

Where am I at? Nowhere and everywhere! Or, for practical purposes, Nashville, TN

Q. What do you do?

What do I do? I think of my job as a link between Esri and the environmental “industry.” My communication and role goes both ways: I at once advocate internally at Esri on behalf of our environmental community to ensure that our products and solutions are meeting the challenges they’re tasked with, while also helping the environmental community fulfill their full potential with the tools and have a vision for where we can take our industry and how geospatial will help us get there. This is precisely why I find the time we’re living in so interesting… are we on the precipice of complete disaster? Sure. But I remain really optimistic because I feel like “I’ve seen the future” and that future is a world where we fully recognize the interconnectedness of our natural, cultural and economic systems, have the spatial tools that give us insight like no other technology can and actually help us adapt and avoid the worst of what we’re facing. I think the Infrastructure Bill, domestically, is fascinating and concrete evidence (and symptom) of what is a global “enlightenment” on this topic.

Q. The ESRI user conference was back this year in person. How was that after a couple of years off and everything being virtual?

Virtual has its own kind of perks, but it also has its downsides. For the past two years as virtual, my husband and I would set up the plenary on our TV and sit on the couch and watch it. #upside. On the other hand, we were still having to respond to emails, messages, etc and it was much easier to be distracted. #downside But there’s something more that’s a little more difficult to verbalize about being in person – there is an innate energy about being gathered together with 15000+ people who share a common language and interest. It can move one to tears and I do get emotional about it every time I’ve been to the UC.

This year for me was especially poignant. I was hired to Esri in late 2019, so I’ve never supported our UC in person as an employee. I was also formerly a Solution Engineer and by the time we were back in person I had moved into Industry Marketing. Our Industry Marketing team plays a functional role in regards to curating the experience our users have at the UC. So I felt a lot of pressure this year on top of being very excited. I wanted to make sure that the messaging we were putting forward around Environment in State and Local Government felt relevant to our audience and was inspiring for them… until you put that messaging out there, you don’t really know if you “got it.” It can be a little terrifying and I had some sleepless nights leading up to it where I was second guessing myself. I had a team of Solution Engineers and Professional Services to support me and I couldn’t have asked for a better team – they tolerated my anxiety with grace and kindness and put together some fantastic demos for our kiosks.

We’ve had a lot to be cynical about the past couple of years – generally speaking. For me, the User Conference always dispels the patina of negativity that can accumulate over time. Being in person this year was a much-needed respite. It just makes me HAPPY to be there, and this year especially – we had so many attendees that were first timers! There was an energy and optimism that can’t be matched in a virtual environment. It’s given me a lot of ideas and inspiration, personally. I genuinely love my coworkers, love the company and love the user group. It’s hard to be away from them for so long.

Q. You become President of TNGIC this year. Madame President (If I can call you that) – what is TNGIC? Here’s the hard question – do we need GIS specific user groups in 2022?

I totally call myself Madame President! I’m unsure how many opportunities in my life I’ll have to be able to say that, so YOLO! TNGIC is Tennessee’s organization for GIS professionals and it has really stood the test of time – which means that there’s a responsibility on my shoulders to ensure that we continue being a healthy and relevant organization.

To the second question, but related to the above – professional GIS organizations SHOULD be more important now that ever and I think that’s the challenge we’re up against. So many professional groups for GIS organizations consist of those who are in government and TNGIC is the same. However, the application of this toolset we call GIS is ubiquitous to every industry and we need to figure out how to branch out our network to include these industries. Our professional organizations should be growing at the same pace as the GIS industry but right now my sense is that’s not happening.

I do think we still need specific user groups – these need to be both industry specific, but also technology specific. It’s like picking up a copy of Woodworking Magazine! You can be a woodworker (a GIS user), but focus on specific applications of those tools (furniture, sculpture, etc.) We all still want to pick up a copy of that magazine though and read what others are doing, be inspired and apply it in our own ways. “A rising tide raises all boats.”

Another goal of mine is to ensure that TNGIC begins to outreach to non-GIS users on the value of GIS. As an industry, this is something that’s been historically difficult for us. We love the technology, so we tend to speak to the technology first. We need to learn how to speak to the challenge it solves first and remember that those in leadership positions don’t care if it’s GIS or something else – they just want to know they can solve the problems that keep them up at night. I only have a year as Madame President and I have lofty goals. Our board is up for the challenge though, and we know that the first thing we need to do is take a hard look at how we conduct business in order to set ourselves up for a future where our processes can support our vision.

Q. We had a conversation at the last TNGIC Meeting – how did you get started in GIS?

Ah yes! Before I was a biology major, and before I had ever touched GIS, I was an art student. This allowed me to get my hands dirty with things like Adobe Photoshop and Illustrator – both applications use the concept of “layers” and various algorithms to manipulate the scene. Later, when I found myself in the position of being a biology intern at Arnold Air Force Base, I had an opportunity one day to take an Esri module. This was before we had our entire learn catalog and suite of tutorials as many know it now.

There was a stormy day and our office had to figure out some way to keep the interns busy and out of the way, so we all got setup on this Esri module. With my art background, the software was really intuitive for me and so I quickly deviated from the goal of the lesson and began exploring the tools. This resulted in a hot pink trail map with black-and-white dashed trail lines and little skulls for waypoints. It was very Sex Pistols punk rock!

I didn’t touch the software for another couple of years until later, when I was a biology student at UT Chattanooga. I found myself hired onto a grant that Dr. Shaw and Dr. Estes (APSU) had secured to map the ecological systems and rare species of the Ocoee River Gorge. This was a massive project – we were subcontracted by URS and our stakeholders were TVA, USFS, USFWS, State of TN and others. Our deliverable was GIS. While I was hired pretty much just to press plants and go on coffee runs, I had this sense that if we didn’t tackle the GIS from the beginning, we’d be stuck translating tons of data on the backend. I naively offered my services to tackle the GIS as our “Plan B.” My punk rock map had not prepared me for the breadth and depth of this software and I quickly became obsessed with teaching myself these tools. They were SO POWERFUL! I had never felt quite so empowered in my life. I scaled back my class hours to part time and pretty much lived in our lab teaching myself this software. We used it to plan our field work, to track our collections and then of course we used it to translate our findings into a spatial deliverable. There was no Web GIS at the time just desktop. I fell in love with it, but also it allowed me to gain a reputation for myself. Dr. Shaw and Dr. Estes were hugely supportive and they trusted me to network with conservation leaders in TN. I remember vividly how they included me in some very important meetings despite being “just an undergrad.” The result was that I was hired immediately out of undergrad to the State of Tennessee – a relief for someone who was not a classically “good student” on paper in the middle of a recession.

Q. Best Park In Tennessee for viewing wildflowers?

Oof – this is the toughest question!

In middle TN we have a globally rare ecosystem called the Limestone Glades. There are species that live here that exist nowhere else in the world. This is called endemism and the central basin has a proportionally high endemism… and is also facing the pressures of explosive growth and development as Nashville takes its turn as the “it city.” For me, these habitats are magical and they allow me to “time travel” hundreds of years into our past where these now-remnants would have been the norm. These habitats are vivid with hues of purple and yellow and hot pinks throughout the year. They’re also harsh and extreme. Flat Rock State Natural Area is a fantastic example, as well as Long Hunter State Park – especially the mountain bike trail (but be wary of mountain bikes and be respectful!)

I used to monitor Tennessee Coneflower and other species in these habitats and it was during the height of summer. The surface temperature of the exposed limestone can get up to over 130 degrees. I loved that work, I loved how harsh it was, how these plants thrived in it and I miss it. Not for everyone.

Echinacea tennesseensis

The East TN parks – especially Roan Mountain around the time the laurels flower are incredible also and just a totally different suite of species to see! I have a fondness for that because I don’t get out there much anymore and miss it greatly.

In West TN, I would say those parks are some of our most underrated. Big Hill Pond State Park is just FUN! Some great trails, the “pond” is fantastic and there’s some super cool flora and fauna out that way – especially if you choose to kayak the Ghost River.

My favorite area of Tennessee though is the Plateau. I can’t describe it really – I’ve just never felt so quite at home as I do wandering the forests of the Plateau. It’s in my retirement plan… special shoutout to Pickett State Park and South Cumberland State Park, but really all the parks on the plateau and the fine staff we have that keep our visitors safe there. It’s incredible and I’d be remiss to not tell our audience what a stellar group our State Park and State Natural Area staff all across the state are. As citizens, we should be especially proud of our of state park system and the staff who manage it.

Agalinis plukenettii

Q. Can GEO Save the Earth? 

I think it’s easy to accuse me of being technocratic and I ponder this often. At the UC plenary this year Jack had a comment to the audience about the Climate Change pickle we find ourselves in – he said it’s a result of a failure to collaborate. He meant, as a global society with a wide range of interests, goals and beliefs we have not been asking questions about how we all interact and impact one another. We lack a shared understanding about each other and about our role in the world and how our social, economic and environmental systems interact with one another. Can Geo save the world? My personal belief is that we cannot innovate our way to a more sustainable future – we must drastically alter our behaviors as a species. However, I believe that geospatial technology is THE ONLY technology that can properly illuminate the shared understanding required for us to move in the direction of a more sustainable future. It is inherently a geographic problem that requires a geographic approach to solve it.

Q. Last question is yours – SAY Anything to the Readers of Geohipster!

 was surprised when you asked me to participate in this. Despite being an Esri employee, and a GIS user, I do not consider myself “GIS-first.” I have always considered myself an environmental professional first – one that happens to use GIS to conduct my business. My role is now helping other environmental professionals be successful with the tools to conduct their business.

Right now, the demand for applied environmental knowledge is greater than it ever has been. This is exciting, but it also means that as an industry, we are rapidly evolving, and our skills must evolve with it. My sense from our community is that we’re sick of talking about climate change as an issue, and we’re ready to move forward with taking action. This is the power of geospatial – it empowers us to ask multi-disciplinary questions, collaborate and take real climate action.

This is why it’s so important for us to collaborate across industries and through the use of a common language of geography. It’s why our professional organizations are so important as well. For environmental professionals especially – we’ve been doing classic “desktop GIS” and we were some of the earliest adopters. Now, with these demands on our knowledge, we’re having to embrace web-GIS and be more collaborative. We need our networks of support more than ever, and THAT, ultimately, is my goal at Esri… To foster that community and ensure we’re successful as an industry. So I really appreciate the opportunity to reach the GeoHipster audience! Thank you.

Rosy Schechter to GeoHipster: “Be kind to yourself.”

Rosy Schechter is a human being who has been fortunate to channel her love of learning and desire to improve the world into a tapestried professional practice. This path has most recently led her to lead Amateur Radio Digital Communications (ARDC), a private foundation that both provides free IP address space to the international amateur radio community and makes grants to support amateur radio and digital communications science and technology. Prior to joining ARDC, she ran a nonprofit that focused on open sourcing data related to cannabis plants (Open Cannabis Project) and another nonprofit that connected people all over the world to learn about how to make open source maps (Maptime). A large portion of her career has also centered around educational and technical writing; she’s written curriculum on HTML, CSS, and Javascript basics, edited a guidebook for communities in Ghana wishing to exercise land tenure rights, copyedited a book on the science of tattooing, ghostwritten articles on the science of cannabis, and diagrammed how the patent system works with cannabis plants. Though she now roams the West Coast with a root in Portland, OR, she originally hails from Atlanta, GA, where she got her MS in Digital Media at Georgia Tech and a BA in Philosophy at Georgia State University. 
Twitter: @RosySchechter

Website: bethschechter.com 

Rosy was interviewed for GeoHipster by Atanas Entchev.

Q: You founded Maptime in 2013. How did that come about? Was Maptime your first encounter with the geo crowd?

A: It all started at the 2013 State of the Map US conference. I was working in business development at the one and only Stamen Design, a boutique data visualization and design studio in San Francisco. Aside from being my first State of the Map event, there were two events that stood out: meeting Alan McConchie (Maptime cofounder and amazing human, who I’ll talk a bit more about shortly) and a striking talk by Alyssa Wright on the dismal number of women contributing to OpenStreetMap – 3%, and only 1% of open source contributions overall. This lack of female contribution had a negative effect on the data, and thus the overall map. For example, there were a variety of different accepted attributions for bars, brothels, and nightclubs, but a proposed attribution for childcare was rejected, though a tag known as `baby_hatch` remained. It made no sense and was clearly the result of a lack of contribution from non-white males. I wanted to change these numbers, which meant learning more about the technical details of mapping myself.

A few weeks later, I invited some friends over to Stamen for snacks and beverages and to work on Javascript tutorials for mapping. There were only a handful of us, and Alan was one of them. A brilliant cartographer with a knack for teaching, he had recently started working at Stamen and was happy to be our resident expert. Camille Teicheira, also a coworker, helped organize. Everyone had lots of fun, and we decided to do it again the next week. And then the next week. And then the week after that!

Before we knew it, word about our little get-together started spreading. In SF, suddenly we had a waiting list for this event that we called Maptime (which is just what it sounded like: time for making maps). Our soon-to-be-friend Lyzi Diamond in Portland, OR, wanted to start a chapter there, which became known as MaptimePDX. Thanks to these co-founders – Alan, Camille, and Lyzi – talking to their friends and tweeting the tweets, folks from all over the country and even internationally heard about us and wanted to do similar meetups in their city, including Washington DC, Berlin, and New York City. Just like that, Maptime was born. 

Q: We met at the 2015 State Of The Map conference in NYC, where you gave a passionate presentation about Maptime to a packed room. Your excitement was contagious. Tell us more about Maptime.

A: I remember! At that time, Maptime had exploded to be something like 40-50 chapters all over the world. And it really was exciting. I had never been a part of a phenomenon like that, and it was incredible and beautiful to me that there were people all around the world who just wanted to get together and learn about making maps, who shared a love for cartographic art and science and had a desire to share knowledge. I am still in awe at how quickly it spread. People stepped in to volunteer on our website (like Rafa Guitierrez), help with our code of conduct, fill out our resources and learning page, and, in a delightfully participatory way, make the whole thing happen. 

Q: At the 2016 SOTMUS in Seattle you gave another passionate talk (I have watched the video many times). In your summary you say “the truth is, [Maptime’s] success has come with a heavy load, one that has challenged my ideals around volunteerism, open source projects, my duty as a founder, and who I am as a human being.” What happened between 2015 and 2016?

A: Thank you. This is one of my favorite talks, and it means a lot to me that you like it and have watched it so many times. It was also one of the hardest – up until that point, most of my talks had been happy and enthusiastic or some kind of how-to. This one touched on some darker subjects, and I wanted to speak to them honestly.

Between 2015 and 2016, I moved from San Francisco to the deep suburbs of Portland, OR. Frustrated with the cost of living and our dismal chances of ever owning property in the Bay Area, we bought a relatively large house on a third of an acre. The summer was great – we were getting settled in our lovely new home, the sun came up early and set late, I worked and gardened. But then winter set in. We didn’t have many friends in Portland yet, we worked remotely, and it rained all the time. I knew it would be hard, but I didn’t realize just how hard it would be. Plus, I had moved from a tiny apartment in the Mission to a three-story house. Cleaning became a part-time job in a way that I didn’t enjoy – still don’t, but now there are roommates to help share the load. At the same time, my mom was having some severe health issues, the same ones that brought about the end of her life in 2019. I had already been feeling a little burnt out when I moved to Portland, but suddenly I was incapable of keeping up with Maptime. 

Though I didn’t want to admit it, I eventually opened up about what was going on with the Maptime board. It turned out, to my surprise, that they were also feeling it. At that point, it had been well over two years since Maptime started. In SF, we ran events every week and then every other week. When Lyzi moved to town, she started a Maptime in Oakland, just across the Bay. All of us had been running events, organizing around the international growth of Maptime, and working our regular jobs. Even though Stamen was supportive and gave us some time to work on it, it was still a lot. As a project that ran free events run by volunteers, it was bound to happen. 

The board decided to step down and pass the baton to a new board, which we announced at the talk you’re referencing. And amazingly, I still see bits of Maptime activity glimmering in my email and around the internet, which makes me very happy.

Q: A lot has changed in your life since 2015, including your name. Care to share details?

A: Sure! Career-wise, Maptime taught me that I really loved writing curriculum and how-tos. So the next job I took was as a curriculum writer for a delightful company called Skillcrush. I eventually decided to try the freelance life out, which gave me some flexibility that I’d been craving. During those early days, I rented a little art studio and started painting. One of my favorites is this 8’ x 4’ quail – Queen Quail, or Inky

It was during this time of freelance that I got involved in the cannabis industry and once again got to put my nonprofit chops to use. Sadly, though I met a bunch of wonderful people on that journey, it ended in heartbreak. It was around then that my mom passed away (not long after her mother, my grandmother) and my relationship took a big hit. I describe that time – 2019 – as my Bad Country Song Year. It was one difficult thing after another. It felt like the entire house of my being had been shaken in an earthquake, and all that was left was scaffolding. For me, it made 2020 and a global pandemic feel easy. That’s how bad it was. 

As it often goes, those times of great destruction are also a time of growth. In addition to taking on practices like prayer and meditation, I also decided that it was time to do something I’d wanted to do since I was a kid: take a different name. I was experimenting with the name Rose when one day I was out to lunch with a friend. When I walked up to his table, he greeted me with “Hey, Rosy!” A lightning bolt of delight ran down my spine. Needless to say, the name stuck. I love it. I also love how often people tell me that they love my name, that they had an aunt or grandma or truck or boat with the same name (likely spelled Rosie). It brings me endless joy. 

The last name I had a harder time settling on – I tried on Moss and Wolfe (the latter being an homage to my mom and her love for wolves). But ultimately, on the 2021 autumnal equinox, I came back to Schechter – my atavistic root. 

So, these days I go by Rosy Schechter, with no penalty to family or friends who still call me Beth. I practice Iyengar yoga daily, which helps to treat an autoimmune disorder (Graves’ Disease) and keeps depression at bay. My relationship is solid. And to top it all off, I have a job that I absolutely love. It’s been a journey, and I am so grateful to Be Here Now.

Q: Currently you are the Executive Director at Amateur Radio Digital Communications (ARDC). How did you end up in that field? What do you like about it? What are your daily duties?

A: My first job working with a nonprofit was actually Burning Man Project, when I was an admin for them as they transitioned from LLC to 501(c)(3) back in 2012. Then there was Maptime. Though we never became an official 501(c)(3), Maptime was the first nonprofit I ever ran. Later, I would run an organization called Open Cannabis Project (OCP). A board member from OCP, John Gilmore, who also sits on the board of ARDC, reached out to me after its founder, Brian Kantor, died in 2019. A tiny nonprofit that had suddenly come into an endowment unexpectedly needed someone to lead it. Knowing nothing about amateur radio, I gave it some thought and then signed on to the adventure in July of 2020. Since then, I’ve helped ARDC get organized operationally, build a small but mighty staff, and together distribute over $10 million in grants, gifts, and scholarships. 

The running joke about being an Executive Director is that it’s a continuous spectrum of “Other duties as assigned,” all while making sure the ship runs smoothly. It’s a challenge, but one that I enjoy. I would dare to say I even love many things about what I do. First, I love being in a philanthropic role: there are few greater pleasures than providing funds that can help make someone’s dreams come true. Second, like with maps, amateur radio and digital communications provide endless room for learning. Since coming on board, I’ve had to learn about the FCC spectrum and regulations, internet routing, packet radio, satellites, and so much more. I also love that we’ve created a culture that offers room for human-ness and flexibility. 

Q: I know of more than a few people who left the geo industry. Some cite burnout or other reasons, others just move on quietly. This topic is dear to my heart, as I must admit the thought has crossed my mind. Why did you leave? Is the cure for burnout workload reduction, or must one change roles/jobs/fields?

A: Leaving maps was hard, and to be honest, I miss it on the regular. That said, I am also someone who craves learning many different things. Through Maptime, I learned that a big chunk of what I loved was curriculum development and documentation. I got to then do a bunch of that work at Skillcrush. Craving more topics, I did even more freelance technical writing work: documenting mapping applications, editing guidebooks on land rights and the science of tattooing, and diagramming how cannabis patents work. So, part of my leaving has nothing to do with being over maps so much as it had to do with wanting to keep learning and trying new things. 

As someone who has been burnt out and is currently not burnt out, I can tell you what works for me:

  • 32-hour workweek
  • Plenty of time for creativity and volunteerism
  • Iyengar yoga!
  • Eating healthy food
  • Taking time off 
  • Spending time with friends
  • Opportunities to learn and try new things, at my job and elsewhere

As I write this, and reflect on the fact that this list reflects my current reality, I recognize that it’s a privileged place to be. That said, as some of my former colleagues know and former managers may lament, I have been advocating for a 32-hour workweek since I had my first office job. I really and truly believe that it is the key to keeping people healthy and happy in their jobs. 2021’s Great Resignation has taught us that people are no longer standing for work environments that lead to moral injury and burnout. If we actually treated people like people, then maybe they wouldn’t want to leave. Maybe we wouldn’t have a healthcare shortage. 

Q: What are your thoughts on change in general? You say “It’s OK to move on”. Is change a goal unto itself, or means to an end?

A: What are my thoughts on change? You mean the one constant that exists in the universe? My thoughts are that I’m fine with it, or else I will be run over by it. 

In all seriousness, change is necessary. A friend of mine, who is training to be a spiritual director, recently shared with me the idea that stagnancy is the root of all illness. I believe this, for our bodies, our lives, and our societies.

That said, I’m learning as I get older that commitment is just as important as being able to surf the waves of change. Otherwise, it’s too easy to be in a state of constantly starting over, which can be detrimental mentally and financially. These days, when I go to try something new, I treat it as an experiment and make a commitment to do it for a certain period of time. Why? Because I’m going to suck at it at first, and some work is required to not totally suck at it. So this year, for example, I’m committed to finishing a screenplay I started working on with a friend. Perfect is the enemy of done, and done feels really good.

Q: Do you miss geo? Do you see yourself returning to the geo field?

A: I do miss geo, and I’m open to coming back. Right now, however, I’m really loving working in philanthropy, so I’ll likely stay here for a minute. 

Q: Do you consider yourself a (geo)hipster? Why/why not?

A: I’m probably more of a Geo-Hippie. I am literally wearing tie-dye leggings as I write this, with Tarot cards and a singing bowl directly to my left. 

Q: I love what you say in your Seattle talk: “It takes sunshine to make a rainbow, but it wouldn’t be possible without rain.” So rain’s not all bad? Sometimes you don’t even want an umbrella.

A: Well, after living in Portland, you just kind of get used to rain and living in boots and a rain jacket for 6-8 months out of the year. And after living in drought-country California for a spell in 2021, I can tell you, not only is rain not bad, it’s essential. Literally and metaphorically. If I hadn’t had my Bad Country Song Year, I would not have found the spiritual and physical practices that have led to my current state of well being. It’s not like my life is perfect, far from it. But I have tools now and a deep appreciation for my life that I didn’t have before that year. I also have an even deeper appreciation for the people in my life – family, friends, colleagues, community – who have supported me or offered patience during the harder times. It’s really humbling. 

Q: If you had to give one piece of advice to our readers, what would that be? 

A: Oh that’s hard. One piece of advice? I’m going to have to give you two that go together.

First, practice accountability. When you are accountable for your actions, it helps your soul feel whole and radiates outward to your home, work, and community. That person you said you would call but didn’t? Call them. Feel bad because you always wanted to write a screenplay / learn Tai Chi / get back to painting? Find a class and go to it. Wish you had done something differently when you were in a relationship with your now ex partner? Find a way to make a living amends. 

There are many ways to keep yourself accountable, and the key is finding what works for you. Shameless plug – here’s a worksheet that I created and use to help me keep on top of my commitments. I’ve shared it under a Creative Commons license, so feel free to modify and share with attribution! I have a friend I meet with weekly, and we each go through our lists. It’s really helpful to have someone to report your progress to, and who can help motivate you when you inevitably fall behind.

Which brings me to the second bit of advice: be kind to yourself. We are all human, and we all make mistakes. There is no magical handbook for how to be perfect that some people got and you didn’t get. No one got the book, no one is perfect, and anyone who thinks they are needs therapy. If you make a mistake and you can learn from it, it’s not a failure – it’s a lesson. Only if you are kind to yourself can you give yourself the strength to keep learning, which is truly one of the greatest joys in life.

Anton Thomas: “Creative inspiration is not field-specific, everything in life flows together to inspire what you do”

Anton Thomas is an artist-cartographer from New Zealand, based in Australia. He creates hand-drawn illustrated maps with colour pencil and pen. His focus is primarily on large works which showcase the world in heavy detail and vivid colour. His works include North America: Portrait of a Continent, a map that took almost five years to complete.

Anton was interviewed for GeoHipster by Ana Leticia Ma.

Q: How did your journey as a cartographer begin? 

A: I was obsessed with maps as a young child. Growing up in small-town New Zealand, my surroundings were awe-inspiring. The geography of the South Island is magnificent, and maps helped me understand it. Exploring them evoked mystery and adventure. While I did like fantasy fiction, I found the real world to be far more captivating. And New Zealand has the geography for it: one looks across the ocean to snow-capped volcanoes, while the Pacific crashes into primeval coastline. It was a vivid place to grow up.

NZ is also very isolated, so perusing atlases and globes was a way to explore distant lands. I would stay up at night drawing maps, committing coastlines to memory. I also loved drawing animals, landscapes, cities, dinosaurs – whatever interested me – and I combined these with maps from the start.

This passion was somewhat neglected through my teens, but came roaring back when I began travelling in 2011. After a childhood in NZ, I was amazed at the vastness of continental geography. I spent two years criss-crossing North America, and my love of maps was reignited. I began to draw them more than ever, culminating in my Portrait of a Continent project (discussed in Question 3).

Q: You’re working on a map called Wild World. Can you tell me more about it?

A: I started Wild World last year, in the middle of a long lockdown in Melbourne. After years drawing a map of North America, I was desperate for something different. I wished to focus only on the natural world, instead of the countless skylines and cultural features of my previous works.

So, it is a world map about nature. The map is in the lovely Natural Earth projection, centred on 11°E rather than Greenwich (I prefer the edges to cut through the Bering Strait, unlike 0°). After sizing it, I printed off the base map and stapled it to the back of my art paper. Then using a lightbox, I traced all coastlines, rivers, and relief and began drawing.

I’ve dreamed of this map since childhood. At age 15 I drew a world map in which the coastlines are shaped by animals of each region. More recently, after seeing Tom Patterson’s stunning physical world maps, I envisioned an animal map showcasing physical geography in detail. Painstaking attention is given to geography and labelling, as I hope it can be a great reference map for world geography. Meanwhile, animals are amazing at evoking place (think tiger in India, kangaroo in Australia), and evoking place is a key goal of my work. There have been many animal pictorial maps through the ages, but they often have a cartoonish character. The illustrations can feel separate from the map, stamped on top like clipart. There are some great maps in this style, but I like to bake my illustrations into the geography, so everything flows together. I want my baboon wandering the mountains, not pasted over the top.

I include no extinct, introduced, or domesticated animals. Only native extant fauna (also no cryptids. Sorry, sasquatch enthusiasts). So Wild World does present Earth in an idealised fashion – although civilization’s footprint can still be seen (e.g. the current extent of the Amazon or the Aral Sea). By showcasing the majesty of Earth’s natural heritage, I hope it can inspire people to consider its importance – and its profound fragility.

Finally, I needed to move on from the North America project. After years on that one map, I’m putting all I learned into something new. Experimenting with new ideas, and (hopefully) proving not everything I draw takes years! I hope to finish and release prints in late 2021. You can sign up to be notified at www.antonthomasart.com/wild-world 

Q: It’s wild how you spent 5 years working on your map North America: Portrait of a Continent. How did that project come about? Did you ever think about giving up in those 5 years? 

A: In 2012, while living in Montréal, I drew a map of North America on a refrigerator. The fridge was old and covered in rust stains, so my housemate painted it white. Looking at the bright new surface, he asked me to draw something to liven it up.

At this point I’d been backpacking the continent for two years, working as a cook, a labourer, turfing lawns, busking… whatever kept me moving. I had grown obsessed with the geography I saw. Visions of a grand map consumed me, one that would showcase that vastness – filled with skylines, landscapes, and animals. So, in a creative frenzy, I used the fridge to test this idea.

Fast-forward to 2014, and I was living in Melbourne, Australia. After the fridge I’d drawn a large map called South Asia & Australasia, this time with colour pencils (on paper, not a fridge). This gave me the experience required to draw North America properly. I thought it might take six months, but as the map progressed so did my skills. The detail became increasingly refined. The research became more in-depth. It was all done in my spare time (nights, weekends), as I maintained a day-job to pay the bills. It was an astounding amount of work, compounded by constant re-drawing due to my technical improvement. In the end, I completed the map in early 2019: almost five years later!

The odyssey hijacked my life but giving up never crossed my mind. I loved drawing it; the map offered me meaning and direction at a difficult time. Midway through the project I attended the NACIS conference in Colorado Springs (2016), meeting a wonderful cartography community for the first time. The map was well-received, and this was a crucial boost. What I learned at NACIS was revelatory, while the response to my map hardened my resolve to finish it.

Q: Can you walk me through the process of drawing each geographical area, especially for areas that you have never physically visited or seen?

A: Everything starts with research. When I get to a new region, I read all I can about it. I do so in stages, starting with physical geography. I must get a sense of where the mountains, plains, forests, deserts, and rivers are. I open new tabs on anything intriguing and follow the breadcrumbs.

Then, I move past physical geography. In the case of North America, there was a huge layer of cultural research. Where are the cities? What are the iconic landmarks? I read about the history, economy, sports, arts, flora, fauna and more. I am always searching for that which would be familiar to a local.

In the case of Wild World, I bypass much of this stage and go straight to animals. What are the apex predators? What are the most famous animals in the region? Animals are often used in regional iconography (e.g., New Zealand’s kiwi), what are these? I look across the animal kingdom – mammals, birds, reptiles, fish etc. I check national parks and nature reserves, as they preserve wildlife populations and have plenty of information available.

This is all done online, and everything I draw is cross-referenced. You cannot count on Wikipedia for everything. If it is suggested that the national bird of Angola is the red-crested turaco, I need more than just a sentence without citation. I look out for local sources, hashtags on Instagram that may be leads, even checking Angolan government and tourism websites.

While researching, I mark off ideas in pencil on the map. I pin important locations on Google Earth, such as mountain peaks or national parks. Once I’ve learned enough, I can see the artwork in my mind. I ink in the labels, grab my pencil, and begin sketching.

Q: Is there an artist, philosopher, or cartographer that you get inspiration from?

A: Heinrich Berann’s painted panoramas are legendary. His map of Yellowstone had a big impact on me. The way in which it is both landscape art and a map, without concern for fitting into either category, is wonderful. I think these categories can be confusing anyway – most cartographers are visual artists too. Berann’s work feels unbothered by such distinctions, and his maps are magnificent.

Many in other fields have been inspirations on my maps. Ernest Hemingway, Nina Simone, Jimi Hendrix, and Ibrahim Gonzales (of Buena Vista Social Club fame) come to mind. Jack Kerouac’s descriptions of American geography were very influential. Creative inspiration is not field-specific, everything in life flows together to inspire what you do.

Q: You made a world map with dried peas at NACIS Tacoma. Aside from that, what’s the weirdest thing you’ve used to make a map?

A: Ah, that was fun! Well, I made a map of New Zealand by cutting up a pair of jandals (“flip flops” as they’re known in the States), a map of Australia with vegemite smeared on toast, and a cat fur world map after a friend groomed their fluffy cat (the only map that ever made me sneeze).

Most recently, while on holiday in Tasmania, I drew a map of Tas in the sand every time I was on a beach. Early on, the map wasn’t great due to my unfamiliarity with the island. But as my trip progressed, the maps improved as I filled in my knowledge. I drew them on beaches in the north, south, east and west – even on sandy riverbanks in the interior.

Q: I really enjoyed your jamming sessions at the NACIS virtual event. What kind of music do you like to play? Do you listen to music when you’re drawing? 

A: It was so fun to play some music with my fellow cartographer/musicians at NACIS! Hopefully it’ll be in person one day. I play guitar and sing, predominantly blues and soul. I listen to a lot of music while drawing, and often like to explore music from the region I’m mapping. This method helps you to feel immersed in the place at hand – especially important when you can’t travel there. Music is a most powerful expression and reflection of place. Ask yourself, what does a place sound like? With this, you begin to approach the beating heart of a region, a culture, a spiritual channel that transcends language.

Plus, music mapping is a great way to discover new music! Music that you may never come across otherwise.

Q: What’s your life philosophy, and what advice do you give to our GeoHipster readers?

A: I feel at my core I try to remember life – and this planet in which it unfolds – is filled with wonder and adventure. It’s more vast, beautiful and terrifying than any fantasy world in fiction. Certainly, in ways it is also a tragedy, and that is a burden and a puzzle. But our mere presence itself is extraordinary, and an appreciation for the vastness of the Earth helps one to consider that broader picture. To move beyond yourself. It’s why I hike, it’s why I explore music, it’s why I love maps. I don’t want to ever forget how amazing this life is, no matter how precarious things can seem.

As for maps, I would just say… try to make maps that interest you. Follow the path that your curiosity urges. If you’re having fun with it, it will be easier to remain passionate and work hard, thus acquiring the requisite hours to get better and better.

Q: What does being a geohipster mean to you?

A: In all honesty I’m not quite sure, except to say I think I was a geohipster “before it was cool” (as any good hipster activity should be)? Referring to my Montréal fridge days, circa 2012 I was a 22-year-old bike-riding line cook trying to speak French (badly), who would return to my houseplant-filled apartment in La Petite-Italie to drink Québécois beer and draw a map on my refrigerator. Hopefully I acquired enduring geohipster creds from this!

Q: Where can we purchase your beautiful maps? 

A: Prints of my maps are available at www.antonthomasart.com – shipping worldwide. The North America map is currently available, and Wild World prints should be ready later in 2021. You can subscribe to be notified when it’s available at: www.antonthomasart.com/wild-world 

Jorge Sanz: “I like to have an eye on what is out of the mainstream industry trends”

Jorge Sanz is a geospatial technologist from Valencia, Spain. He studied Surveying, Cartography, and Geodesy engineering at the Polytechnic University of Valencia. For 15 years, Jorge has been working on consultancy, sales engineering, support, and development of Geographical Information Systems with a high focus on Open Source Software and Open Data. He has been a long-term contributor to the OSGeo Foundation and other initiatives globally and locally.

Jorge was interviewed for GeoHipster by Ana Leticia Ma.

Q: You advertise yourself as a cartographer In flip flops. What does that mean to you?

A: Yeah, I use that in my Twitter bio, haha. Saying that I’m in flip-flops, I mean I’m easygoing, I don’t take myself too seriously on that social network, and above anything else, I stay positive by all means. My whole career has been around bringing the geospatial dimension to all kinds of projects and products, so I’m probably far away from what ordinary people consider a cartographer does. Still, I think it is a nice way to describe myself.

Q: How did you become a cartographer?

A: Maps have always fascinated me way before computers. Exploring the world from my bedroom, staring at an old atlas for hours, and then reading novels and comics was a big pastime in my childhood. Then computers came; I was lucky to be exposed to the BASIC programming language when I was 13 years old or so, proving to be very useful later at university. Anyway, since I loved geography, maths, and technical drawing, joining the Surveying Engineering school felt natural and easy. At university afterward, I realized that the typical Civil Engineering path for surveyors was not for me. I was interested in pursuing more advanced topics like GPS networks, geophysics, cartography production, GIS, etc. I majored in Geodesy, but I ended up finishing my formal studies doing a GIS project that definitely drove me to geospatial development, web-mapping, and Open Source software.

Q: Can you talk to me about your involvement with open source? And how did it shape your career?

A: The thesis project to get my degree was a GIS developed with Visual Basic 6 and ArcObjects 8, creating a desktop application to explore and manage a regional irrigation infrastructure. Even though I loved the result, it was 2004, and it seemed evident to me that the future of information management was not in desktop applications but on the web. I spent a few more weeks exploring options to publish all this data differently. At that moment, I was already playing with Linux, GRASS, and other Open Source components, so I quickly got into some straightforward PHP programming and UMN MapServer.

OK, so I arrived at Open Source as a user and very noob developer. After I got my degree, I stayed at the university on a research grant, with the idea of starting a Ph.D. and hopefully an academic career. On the other hand, I was already participating in GIS mailing lists in Spanish for a few years and, more recently, in the MapServer users group. At some point, there was some sort of extensive discussion there about Autodesk willing to rebrand their MapGuide product with the MapServer name. After many emails, I learned a new foundation was created to serve as an umbrella for MapServer and other Open Source projects.

Those were very active years for Open Source and Geo. The new OSGeo Foundation was a breath of collaboration and the perfect space for developers and users looking for like-minded folks in a world dominated by proprietary products. A group of Spanish-speaking users gathered. We started to translate the OSGeo website, discuss our own mailing lists, and eventually got our own conference here in Spain, called SIG Libre organized by the Girona University Geography and Remote Sensing department (SIGTE).

It also meant the time I left the academic path and joined Prodevelop, a small consultancy company in Valencia looking for someone with cartography and technical skills. I joined to help to develop an ArcIMS plugin for gvSIG, an Open Source desktop GIS that the Valencian Government started as part of a broader migration to Open Source. The company itself was also shifting to Open Source for their own projects. I worked with them for over ten years, and I was lucky to participate in many other projects using many different products: Deegree, GeoNetwork, GeoServer, Open Layers, etc. In fact, my first contribution to the SIG Libre conference was an article written together with Miguel Montesinos, Prodevelop’s CTO, to review and explore the Open Source GIS ecosystem. It was a great way to dive into and learn about the many different initiatives already available back then!

After Prodevelop, I moved to CARTO, where I worked for four years as a Solutions Engineer first, later also managing the Support Team. It was fantastic to join the company and be part of a team that develops an Open Source product, helping clients understand and use it for their own products.

Q: What kind of cool things are you building at Elastic?

A: Elastic has an extensive portfolio of products where Geo has had a small presence for many years. The first time I used Elasticsearch on an actual project was around 2013. I was amazed by how easy and powerful the product was to store and search large geodata with a developer-friendly interface.

I work at the Kibana team in Elastic. Kibana is a web frontend to manage and explore data in Elasticsearch and a platform for vertical solutions for the Security, Search, and Observability industries. Almost all those verticals in some way can leverage the geospatial dimension. I work at the team that develops the Maps application and the Elastic Maps Service. The Maps application allows users to visualize and explore Elasticsearch geodata and then put it together with other visualization types like bar charts, gauges, histograms, etc. But the cool thing is that Elastic Maps is also a component for the rest of the solutions. You can see a map in the Machine Learning classification app if you are working with country ISO codes. You can explore your Internet network connections on a map, thanks to the geolocation of IP addresses. You can understand differences in how well your application performs in different parts of the world or identify clusters of sources of cyberattacks on your IT infrastructure. The use cases are endless, and I’m always excited to learn that a new team at Elastic is adding the Maps component to their app.

My main focus is on the Elastic Maps Service, where the Kibana and Infrastructure teams work together to provide a reliable set of geospatial services for our platform. We serve our own basemap and data boundaries, created from OpenStreetMap, Wikidata, and NaturalEarth databases, contributing actively to the OpenMapTiles project as our upstream technology stack.

Elastic is broadly used in air-gapped environments. One of the recently developed projects is a self-hosted version of our services, helping our clients deploy their own maps server. This way, their users can experience Kibana in the exact same way any other clients do.

Oh, by the way, Jenny Allen, current Kibana Maps team lead, was also interviewed at Geohipster when she was working at HERE 🙂.

Q: Aside from being active in the foss4g community, you’re involved with Geoinquietos in Spain. Tell me more about that, and what’s something unique about Geoinquietos?

A: Geoinquietos is a natural evolution of that OSGeo Spanish-speaking community I mentioned before. With the OSGeo Foundation, the FOSS4G conference started as well, and in 2010 it was held in Barcelona. After the conference, the local committee realized they liked working together and continued gathering, and that’s how Geoinquiets started (Geoinquietos in the Catalan language). You can read more about that story at Raf Roset’s geohipster interview. Afterward, other cities in Spain and South America followed that lead, creating a loose network of people interested in Open Source and Open Data.

Geoinquietos is not really unique. It’s very similar to other initiatives like Maptime or Geomob. They all are about that same old human need of gathering and sharing. You know, we are all busy with our work, quite often with people that don’t share our interest in Geo, so having the chance to meet up with like-minded folks is just great. I love Geoinquietos because you can have at the same table a developer, an archaeologist, a surveyor, and an entrepreneur, all together talking about OpenStreetMap, urban planning, routing tools, and whatnot.

I also like the idea of many of us having some strong connections in different groups. It is great you can visit a city and be sure some folks will want to meet up, or the opposite, to know a geo-friend is coming to town and a few locals will want to gather and have a chat.

Q: I read on your blog that you’re a big sailor. How did you get into that? Any future sailing goals?

A: Oh, you said it wrong. I’m big, period. And then I’m a bit of a sailor 😂. I got into sailing only around ten years ago when I started attending sailing practice with my Prodevelop friends some Friday afternoons after work. Shortly after, I got a skipper license to learn more about the craft and began to participate in sailing activities in bigger yachts. In 2016 I joined the Oosterschelde to sail from Douarnenez in France to Oban* in Scotland. I realized then that that was the kind of sailing I loved the most: a big schooner where everyone in the crew had to hoist sails, take the wheel, help on the galley, and learn together about the sea.

One of the many things I love about this kind of activity is that you join an effort to move the boat from point A to point B, and everyone is needed. You work in shifts that rotate through the day, collaborating in the common goal of arriving at B successfully. People from different cultures, ages, and backgrounds, total strangers before starting the trip, and enclosed in a not so ample space 24 hours a day, need to learn many things quickly. This gets you in a very particular mood, a mix of confusion, excitement, positivism, and sometimes a bit of fear. Some may be experienced sailors, others like more occasional practitioners, some absolutely new to the experience, but everyone learns and enjoys the trip together. I totally recommend it, no previous experience is needed, and it is OK for all ages. I’ve sailed with people in their 20s and in their 80s.

BTW, there’s nothing like arriving at a harbor (maybe even in a different country!) after a few days on the sea, eager to explore what the place has to offer.

Last December, I became a dad, so I don’t really think I’ll have the time or the motivation for long sailing trips in the near term. Yet, on my bucket list, I have the Atlantic Ocean crossing; something like Cape Verde to the Caribbean would be incredible. Another dream would be to sail to Antarctica. I have also to admit I have never been on a regular touristy cruise, maybe that’s something we can do as a family until my son is old enough to join me on a long sailing trip!

Q: What’s your most geo geek interest?

A: Ahh, so hard to say. I’m interested primarily in technology around web mapping and data processing. I love “analog” cartography styling, and watching NACIS talks about hand-drawn maps is always a joy. Still, at the end of the day, any advancement in the Open Source to process, distribute, and display geospatial data will always attract me. An example of a recent interest would be the advances in file formats optimized for the Cloud and HTTP Range Get requests. COGs (Cloud Optimized GeoTIFF) are already pretty popular and being adopted, but there’s already a new cool kid on the block that would be the COG vector counterpart called FlatGeobuf. I hope we will see many projects experimenting around this new format, and at some point I’d love to tinker with it as well.

Q: What makes you a geohipster?

A: You mean apart from the flip flops, right? Just kidding 😂. I always try to stay positive and open-minded, with a never-ending curiosity for all kinds of topics. I like to have an eye on what is out of the mainstream industry trends. Maybe that makes me some sort of geohipster, or at least a good Geoinquieto 🤗.

*Editor’s Note: an earlier version of this interview misspelled Oban as “Hoban”. In an effort to avert a worldwide Twitter flame war, we have made the correction and added a link.

Patrick McGranaghan: “I like maps that connect disparate datasets in novel ways”


Patrick McGranaghan is a land surveyor in Denver, Colorado. He started the MapPorn subreddit in May 2011 while living in Taipei, Taiwan. In his free time Patrick is a geographic pilgrim, visiting places like the Mason-Dixon line and all seven corners of Colorado. Patrick also runs the Twitter account @mapporntweet.

Patrick was interviewed for GeoHipster by Ana Leticia Ma.

Q: How did your career as a land surveyor come about?

A: I found a job working as a rodman for a surveying crew after doing a stint teaching English to school children in Taiwan. Living in Taiwan was one of the best experiences in my life, but after four years it was time to come back. When I got back I had few connections or prospects, but knew I wanted to do something with maps, so I applied for a surveying job that I found on Craigslist. After several years of learning on the job I was able to move into my dream job of drawing survey maps for a living.

Q: The 10th anniversary of /r/MapPorn is coming up. Tell me what inspired you to start MapPorn, and what goes on behind the scenes.

A: I joined the Reddit community early on because I liked the interface and the up-vote and down-vote style of finding content. When I started /r/MapPorn the ‘subreddit’ communities were still a new idea and there wasn’t one for high-quality maps. I can remember in the years of the 2000s trying to search for good maps and the content was much harder to find. There were a few sites like the David Rumsey Map Collection and Frank Jacobs had a great blog called Strange Maps but other than that there were few sites that collected the kind of maps I was interested in. 

In the years since Reddit and the user-base has transformed. Reddit was originally for desktop users who could look at content on a big screen with a reliable internet connection. Now, for better or worse, the majority of users are on mobile. I think this biases the content in favor of bite-sized consumable maps that look good on a phone or tablet device. Purists sometimes find these ‘meme’ style maps to be irritating, but the demographic trends are inexorable.

Q: Are you a map hoarder? 

A: Yes, map hoarding is definitely a problem for us in the hobby. Any time I’m traveling I can’t resist picking up free brochures or other ephemera with a map. I have boxes in my closet full of such souvenirs and memorabilia. I’m used to moving around and traveling so I probably have a smaller collection than a lot of hobbyists to keep things light. Almost the entirety of my bedroom walls are covered in maps and illustrations. I recently visited a great little map store here in Denver called The Old Map Gallery, and I had to pinch myself and think about my crowded walls to stop myself from buying more maps. Map collecting is sometimes surprisingly affordable and antique maps can be had for less than a night at a nice restaurant. 

Q: What kind of maps would you like to see more of? 

A: I think that there is still a lot of potential in maps with modern data visualization techniques. We have an ocean of data in this age and I think a lot of it is lost in databases, csvs, xml and other data structures. I like maps that connect disparate datasets in novel ways and make new discoveries. In the book “Info We Trust” RJ Andrews has a chapter visualizing the orientation of cathedrals and showing how they are oriented towards the rising sun. This is the kind of insight that new maps can show. The data is already out there, it just takes a clever person to connect the dots.

Q: You’re one of the biggest geo nerds I know. What are some of your geo-related hobbies?

A: Thanks, I’m flattered. In the words of Thomas Pynchon from Mason & Dixon, I would consider myself to be a “Geometrickal Pilgrim”. In 2020 I finished my goal of visiting all seven corners of Colorado. Yes, seven corners if you include the points where other states have their corners on the Colorado line. I also recently made a trip to the Philadelphia area to visit the Delaware “Wedge” and other sites associated with Mason and Dixon. A few years ago I hiked along Hadrian’s Wall in northern England. 

I also like to make maps using QGIS and Illustrator. Recently I’ve been exploring different projections. I’ve been especially interested in the Hotine Oblique and the Gnomonic projections and in how they challenge conventional ideas of the flat map. 

Q: When we met at NACIS in Tacoma, you told me you’ve spent a lot of time traveling. How many countries have you been to, and what are some of your future destinations? 

A: Yes, that was a great NACIS convention! Unfortunately we’ve all had to put our travel plans on hold in the last year. I had planned on doing a Round the World trip in 2020 but obviously that fell through. Some of the places I hoped to visit on that trip include a huge map of Korea in Daejeon, a Soviet map store in Latvia, a giant map on a cooling tower of a power plant near Meppen, Germany, the home of Dutch astronomer Willebrord Snell in Leiden, and Roy’s baseline near Heathrow in England. 

As far as countries I’ve been to, I don’t really keep count, but it’s around 30. Here’s to hoping things get back to normal soon. We’ve only got a limited time on this planet and we’re losing years of our lives that we won’t get back. 

Q: Any final words to our GeoHipster readers? 

A: I just want to say I love my GeoHipster calendar, shoutout to Barry Rowlingson for his April Fools’ San Serriffe map.

Trisalyn Nelson: “The biggest challenge is working to ensure the data are representative”

Trisalyn Nelson joined the Department of Geography at UCSB as Jack and Laura Dangermond Endowed Chair of Geography in 2020. From 2016-2020 she was Director of the School of Geographical Sciences and Urban Planning at Arizona State University. Prior, she was the Lansdowne Research Professor and Director of the Spatial Pattern Analysis and Research Lab at the University of Victoria, Canada. Trisalyn is mom to Beatrice and Finn and married to Ian Walker. She loves bicycling and baking, especially with her family.

Trisalyn was interviewed for GeoHipster by Atanas Entchev.

Q: How did you get into GIS?

A:  As a student I was really interested in forest conservation. I had a summer internship at the Pacific Forestry Center and one of the mentors I met there showed me how being technically proficient in GIS and spatial data analysis would allow me to support better forestry decisions. As a result, I had to go and take a lot of additional classes, including pre-requisite courses, to get the data and computing skills needed to pursue GIS. But, I am so glad I did.

Q: How did you decide to pursue a career in academia?

A: I am an accidental geographer and an accidental academic. As the first in my family to attend university, I did not understand what a PhD was. I remember being super confused about the difference between a TA and a professor. I had many great professors and mentors that helped me succeed in university. 

It was really a combination of a field course in the Rocky Mountains and great internships that lead me to learn how to do research. As someone that had struggled early on in university, it was amazing when I discovered GIS was something I was good at. 

Q: Tell us about your typical work day (or week) — what you do, what GIS and other tools you use.

A: Hmm… well… I use lots of different tools. But, my favorite part of my job is scheming up new ways to answer questions using spatial data. I love collaborating and if someone comes by with spatial data I can’t help but get excited about finding ways to help with analysis. I have worked with many interdisciplinary teams and there is something so satisfying about seeing other people light up when they realize how GIS and geography can create a deeper understanding of data and issues. 

Q: As an avid cyclist and a former year-round bike commuter I can relate to your bike safety concerns, and I admire your BikeMaps initiative. Tell us more about it.

A: I love bicycling and I love maps. BikeMaps.org is the bringing together of both the things.  When I first had the idea, in response to my own near miss, I thought it would just be a fun summer project. But, it turns out that only about 20% of bicycling crashes are officially reported and there is a need to fill data gaps on bicycling safety. BikeMaps.org is a crowdsource tool for collecting data on bicycling crashes, near misses, and falls. We ask questions about what happened and the impact of the incident. We have published several papers using the data and are improving bicycle safety by providing hot spot maps to cities and modelling predictors of bicycling injury. We are so proud that cities are making investments to improve bicycling based on BikeMaps.org data.

We are launching a new project called WalkRollMap.org which uses a similar approach as BikeMaps.org for mapping micro barriers to walking and rolling with wheelchairs and other mobility assisting devices. The goal of this project is to reach people that are underseved by transportation systems and help them map where investment would enable their mobility. Stay tuned!  

Q: What was/is the biggest challenge in developing and running BikeMaps? The technology? The data? The “crowd”?

A: Luckily we have always had an amazing technology development team that has protected me from some of the technological challenges. Using a crowdsourced tool requires ongoing promotion to people that can provide data, and constantly reminding people we are here is a challenge. But, the biggest challenge is working to ensure the data are representative. People providing data to BikeMaps.org are people that have access to both bicycling and technology. We need to ensure that people that do not have access are not left behind. Working to engage older adults, youth, women, low income and homeless people, and people of color is really critical and something we are focusing on improving in the next wave of data collection.

Q: You are the Jack and Laura Dangermond Chair of Geography at UCSB. You are also “The Dangerman Chair”. Tell us about the former. Who awarded you the latter?

A: The Jack and Laura Dangermond Chair in Geography is a faculty position at UCSB. The chair is endowed by the generous Dangermonds. Originally, it was created for Michael Goodchild, one of the key leaders in the field of GIS. As such, I see the position as a really important mixture of teaching, research, and disciplinary leadership. I am hoping that in this position I can be a champion for inclusive and impactful geographical research. With so many pressing issues, from climate change to social inequity, we need to do everything we can to accelerate solutions.

I received the Dangerman Chair award from my 9 year old daughter Beatrice Nelson-Walker. She heard me talking about the Dangermond chair and how excited I was to be moving to UCSB to be the Dangermond chair of geography. So she drew me a picture for my office. I guess she heard Dangerman.

Q: I have never been to Santa Barbara, but I’d love to visit some day. Looks wonderful. Tell us about life in Santa Barbara.

A: Santa Barbara is really beautiful. It is near the ocean with a moderate climate. Lots of bicycling and hiking.  And, the food is delicious. 

Q: Do you still bike to work?

A: Absolutely! I love biking, with bike commuting being my favorite.

Q: What do you do for fun?

A: I love to bake. I make fancy cakes for my kids’ birthdays, usually in the shape of animals. And, I have a line of cookies.

Q: Do you have any hipstery traits? Other than cycling, of course (a fixie maybe?)

A: I am obsessed and snobby about coffee. Though, I think hipsters may be trying to ruin coffee with sour roasts!  

Q: On closing, any words of wisdom for our global readership?

A: Geographers should be at the forefront of creating solutions to the world’s most pressing issues. From climate change to social justice the tools that geographers have are critical for making the world more sustainable and more inclusive.

Rebekah Jones to GeoHipster: “We work at the cross-section of Earth and people”

Rebekah Jones
Rebekah Jones

Rebekah Jones’ unlikely notoriety as a coronavirus whistleblower stemmed from her ground-breaking work as the GIS Manager at the Florida Department of Health, where she led data and surveillance during the global pandemic. Her work became the standard for states nation-wide. In May 2020, when asked to manipulate data in support of a premature plan to reopen the state, Jones refused, was fired, defamed, and became an object of the press for months after she filed her whistleblower complaint against the state.

Jones earned her bachelor’s from Syracuse University in 2011 with dual majors in geography and journalism, then went on to study hurricanes and climate change at Louisiana State University in Baton Rouge. Later, Jones headed to Florida State University to continue her research in hurricanes and climate change. 

After leaving DOH, Jones built her own system to monitor the pandemic, worked on global programs to track cases in east Africa, and launched a nationwide initiative to track cases in schools. In September 2020, Jones was named one of Fortune Magazine’s 40 under 40 and one of Medium’s 50 experts to trust during a pandemic.

Rebekah was interviewed by Christina Boggs-Chavira, Mike Dolbow, and Atanas Entchev.

Q: What sparked your love for geography? How did you get into GIS?

A: Having lived through blizzards, tornadoes and hurricanes as a kid, I always found weather and hazards interesting. I’d say I fell in love with geography as a discipline at Syracuse, when I took my first global climate change course with Dr. Jane Reed. She helped me make sense of all of the things that had been happening around me my entire life. It felt like finding religion in a way — I finally understood my lived experiences in a scientific way.

Q: You built Florida state’s COVID Dashboard, leading a 20-person team. Then you were fired. You launched your own COVID Dashboard 2.0 (later renamed to Covid Monitor) in one day, which you financed yourself. This is an amazing feat. How did you manage? Did you have help?

A: I don’t know where the 20-person team came from but I was actually the only one who ever touched the dashboard, the data feeds, or any of the data that fed into it. It was me alone for months because I was the only one there who could do it. My backup was stuck in India and then was quarantined for a few weeks, so I didn’t even get to have someone else do the updates until late April. It was extremely stressful and overwhelming. I was exhausted, not unlike a lot of people who had been working all day, every day since the pandemic started. When I refused to use the system to mislead and lie to people, they took the dashboard (and wrecked it) then fired me. After all I had put into the project, they didn’t care. I built my next dashboard, Florida COVID Action, in June, to provide a location that brought in ALL of Florida’s authoritative data into one location, not just what the Department of Health restricted me to while I worked there. I added Department of Corrections data, emergency management data, hospitalization data, long-term care facility data, testing site data — if it was published in an official capacity by the state, I added it. Two months or so later, I co-founded The Covid Monitor with partners from FinMango and Google. That project arose out of a need to provide K-12 case data — a void no one else was filling. We saw the gap and the need, so we tackled it. It’s been an amazing success since then and I couldn’t be more thankful to my partners. 

Rebekah at the Florida DOH
Rebekah at the Florida DOH

Q: Incorporating school district data into the COVID Monitor is one major difference from the official Florida dashboard 1.0. Your COVID Monitor is presently the only national reporting system for school districts. Why is school district data tracing important? Was it difficult to obtain the data?

A:  At first, no one wanted to report school data. We depended on press releases and news articles, reporting from staff inside schools, and investigative reporting by our team. Mississippi stepped forward as the first state to report consistent data about cases in K-12 schools, and their progressive thinking allowed us to pressure other states to do the same. Now, most states report some kind of data about schools, and many districts in states that aren’t currently reporting will release their own district-wide data. Schools are a breeding ground for the virus — as we’ve seen across the United States and especially in the UK, where schools remained open to face-to-face instruction leading to the emergence of the B117 strain. 

Q: When setting up applications for hurricane tracking or for COVID, I probably would be concerned about getting the data right and then secondly but still incredibly important — your application is about to be slammed. What do you do to prepare for all that traffic that is about to click on your map?

A: I was manager of GIS for the entire Florida Department of Health, so thankfully I had access and control over all our dedicated servers, backups, etc. I had to check in with Esri since it’s an online platform to ensure they were ready for the traffic, as well. Crafting the settings for optimization and working on code helped a lot.

Q: Our readers are all about open data and the transparency that it engenders. Some might say that proprietary software can taint analysis results because the code is in a “black box”, whereas free and open source software can lower the barriers to scientific replication. Where do you stand on the debate over tools, if anywhere? Is transparent data more important than the tools used to display it?

A: Reproducibility is a must. I actually published extremely detailed data definitions and processes while I worked at DOH. The software used here was just a tool to display data and provide APIs. The data itself is where the transparency must be absolute. How is it gathered? What are the potential biases in collection and production? What does this data say, and what does it not say? What is not known? Where are the gaps? Transparency is about acknowledging your data’s flaws as well as its strengths. I stand firmly with the “release the code” group. 

Q: Where do you see this project going? You will get another job sooner rather than later. Do you foresee the COVID Monitor folding into your new job, or will you continue to maintain it outside of the job, or something else?

A: We were all hoping that a new administration would take over The Covid Monitor and run this project from the NIH, CDC or Dept. of Education (or some combination thereof). We had hope when Biden announced a national dashboard, but we’ve yet to see schools even mentioned in that plan. It’s really disappointing, but if this administration fails the public again by not providing this data, we’ll continue to do it ourselves until it is no longer needed. 

Q: Recently your mobile phone and PC were seized on a search warrant by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. What was that about? Do you have your devices back?

A:  I hope to have my devices back soon. The raid on my home was nothing more than an attempt by DeSantis to find out who’s been talking to me and to flush out disloyalty within his ranks.

Q: I can speak for myself and say with all honesty, hearing about what has happened to you and what is continuing to unfold and my heart goes out to you. I hope I would have the strength like you did. How did you do it, what gave you the strength?

A:  I don’t know. I have always fought for doing what I thought was right, so it’s really second nature for me to see something wrong and say “no, I will not accept this.” We moved because guns were pointed at my kids in the raid ordered by the Governor, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to stop reporting the information people depend on. I don’t think anyone knows what they’ll do in those moments. We all hope we’d do the right thing — the hard thing — even when guns are pointed at us or our family, but until we’re there, no one really knows. 

Q: You’re a wife and a mother. How does your family handle all this — the recent move to DC and the rest of the craziness?

A: When you’re in your home and armed men storm your house, there’s a loss of security in your mind. Even here in DC, I jump when the doorbell rings. I don’t know if that will ever go away. You feel like there’s no safe place for you anymore. My son is struggling, but so am I, and my husband, in our own, different ways. Moving is always crazy — and feels impossible with a toddler, ha. Not fun, but necessary.

Q: As someone with degrees from Syracuse and LSU, plus significant time living in Florida and now DC, you’ve seen a lot of the country. Forgetting about COVID for a minute, if you could pick a place to live, where would that be and why?

A: Hawaii. I’ve lived in Pennsylvania, Maryland, Mississippi, New York, Louisiana, Florida, now DC… I know I love the beach, warmth, sun. I’m committed to mapping indigenous landscapes and protecting cultural sitescapes, and Hawaii would be an amazing opportunity to do so. My roommate at Syracuse is Hawaiian and would tell me about her home. If we’re limiting options to the United States and cost wasn’t an issue, Hawaii, hands down. 

Rebekah with her parents
Rebekah with her parents

Q: Do you consider yourself a GIS person, or a data scientist, or a whistleblower? Or maybe all three?

A:  I’m not a data scientist. I keep emphasizing to folks that I am a geographer — and I was recognized as a geographer in the news for months before the raid. Now I’m back to data scientist, and it’s highly inappropriate. All scientists work with data, that doesn’t make them data scientists. I consider myself a GIS expert, a whistleblower, a geographer. 

Q: You are a GIS celebrity, like it or not. You are the Forbes nerd of the year. How does it feel to be an industry celebrity?

A:  Hahaha. I wish it would help me find a job! I had no idea the Forbes award was in the works, and they didn’t even contact me to tell me I had received it! I found out on Twitter several days after the announcement!

Q: Have you considered running for office?

A: Yes. Our country desperately needs scientists and geographers in office who have a steadfast commitment to doing what is right. 

Q: Picture your average “geohipster”, if such a thing exists. Is that person doing what you would recommend to stay safe during a pandemic? If not, what should they be doing – or stop doing?

A: I would hope anyone with a geographically-focused education would know to do everything in their power to limit their role in spreading this virus. 

Q: If you could make COVID-19 disappear with a snap of your fingers, what would you be doing for fun in your spare time?

A: Hiking, visiting with my sisters and parents, eating out, ha.

Q: What advice do you have for little aspiring geographers and for those of us who are a bit less little?

A: We work at the cross-section of Earth and people. The tension between those two entities can be jarring, and often tests our ideals of what is right and wrong. I asked this question to DOH “leadership” the day they asked me to use my work to lie to people about the safety of reopening, and I think it’s something everyone should ask themselves whenever they’re faced with such a decision. The Hippocratic oath of geography to do no harm:

“If we do this, will more people get sick and die than if we didn’t do it?”

And if that answer is yes, we shouldn’t do it. It’s that simple. It has to be that simple. 

Ayodele Odubela to GeoHipster: “Frame your work as if the data was about your friends and family.”

Ayodele Odubela
Ayodele Odubela

Ayodele Odubela is Founder and CEO of FullyConnected, a platform for reducing the barrier to entry for Black professionals in ML/AI. She earned her Master’s degree in Data Science after transitioning to tech from digital marketing. She’s created algorithms that predict consumer segment movement, goals in hockey, and the location of firearms using radio frequency sensors. Ayodele is passionate about using tech to improve the lives of marginalized people.

Ayodele was interviewed for GeoHipster by Mike Dolbow.

Q: Our readers are mostly in the “geo” industry, but many of us consider data scientists like yourself to be kindred spirits. Can you tell us your story about how you got started in tech?

A: It was definitely a shaky kind of start. Like a lot of college students, I wasn’t really sure what I wanted to do. I had been a computer science major, a film major, and even studied athletic training. When I ended up at computer science, it felt close, but not exact. Around 2010 or so, I was coding in C++, but didn’t feel like I was learning. I had a lot of digital media experience from my film studies degree, so I ended up with a digital communications undergrad degree. That allowed me to work in marketing for a few years. I did some social media marketing, and landed at an app company, doing social analytics with A/B testing, in-app messages, and that sort of work. By the time that startup ran out of funds, data science was starting to become more popular, like “the sexiest job in the 21st century”! I went back to school for a Master’s in data science. This felt like a good next move. Since then I’ve worked for all kinds of companies doing a wide variety of work, like sensor recognition for firearms.

Q: Ethics in tech is having quite a “moment” – or maybe you might say a decade. You’ve been quite vocal on Twitter about Google’s recent firing of Timnit Gebru, as have many others. If you’re a technologist inside an organization that is making questionable decisions, what is your first move? Where do you draw the line between trying to change an organization from within, versus speaking out against it – and probably leaving?

A: I think it comes from having really hard conversations. Hopefully you’re in a workplace where a respectful challenge is seen as a good thing. I’m thankful that I’ve been in workplaces where I’ve felt enough freedom to bring up these types of problems, and bring up difficult conversations. They don’t always lead to change, but at least I’ve surfaced specific issues.

I think for a lot of technologists, the first move is to start talking to management about existing policies. A lot of times people break policies without realizing it. Take policies around things like proper data use and cyber security: we get trained, but we’re human and still make mistakes. We’re not always on top of it.

By first going to management, or a trusted manager, you can start to discover the incentives and the reasons why certain decisions are being made. I think you’ll often find it’s profit or revenue based, and in some instances I’ve been able to persuade teams to change their course of action by generating different processes and systems that don’t have such significant issues.

For example, in a past role they wanted us to create a tool that predicted someone’s gender based on their name. When this was first brought to me, I thought, “this is something we shouldn’t do”. I went digging and brought the “5 whys” to the problem.

It turned out, the marketing team wanted more data for push messaging and in-app notifications, because they noticed stark differences between how women and men interacted with the product. So, they didn’t have a nefarious motive, they just wanted more information – but they were still going about it in the wrong way. Instead of using that gender classifier, I created a user classification model to help them with this segmentation.

These decisions are going to be different for everyone. I personally have a lot less that I would deal with before leaving, because I have an intimate knowledge of how badly this kind of thing can hurt people. With the knowledge of the incentives behind organizational decisions, it should be easier for technologists to set their boundaries. Like with Timnit’s firing, if you’re in a situaton like that and you realize that the organization isn’t committed to being ethical or transparent, it can make it easier to leave.

For me, seeing that situation, where part of an organization that was labeled as “Ethics in AI” went and fired one of their leaders for speaking out, that was kind of the last straw for me as a user. But that can be very scary, especially the closer you get to it. Since technologists in the past have felt like our role is “neutral”, it’s not fun to think about law enforcement coming to your house because of the job you’re doing, when you’re just trying to tell the truth.

Q: You recently published “Getting Started in Data Science”, which looks like a great way for someone new to launch into your field. Can you tell us more about the book? What compelled you to write it? What will readers get if they buy it?

A: I was compelled to write this book because I had a hard time getting started in Data Science myself. I didn’t have a very technical background, and I was struggling to learn things like statistics and coding in what felt like a vacuum. Once I got to grad school, there was a snowball effect of learning; I began building on prior experiences, and getting help through real-life conversations.

Then when I got into industry, I was shocked by how even the learning from grad school didn’t match what my employer wanted me to do. In this book, I share a lot of industry knowledge that I’ve gained, like managing project deliverables, juggling stakeholders, that kind of thing. Readers get an introductory book that contains a lot of hints and tips that I didn’t have when I started.

Readers will also get a clear path into Data Science, depending on where they’re starting from. They can go the academia route, use boot camps, or some other journey, and I’m giving them details on their path from there, in particular how to leverage the domain knowledge they may already have. People come into this field from so many different backgrounds; it’s nice to transition into it when you already have some understanding of the domain’s important metrics or KPIs. I think the book is especially good for career transitioners, so they can leverage some of that prior knowledge in the next chapter of their career.

(To our readers: Ayodele is generously offering 25% off her book to our readers with the code GEOHIPSTER. –Ed.)

Q: I think a lot of our readers in the geospatial industry will recognize that advantage. There are a lot of us who are well-versed in one or two verticals, and also bring enough of the geospatial knowledge to bear in order to solve problems in those industries.

That makes sense; I think if you have any kind of specific knowledge, there are a lot of companies looking for that, so leverage it!

Q: Your experience has spanned from working for travel agencies to drone companies. There are obvious connections with mapping here – ever get sucked into a cartography rabbit hole? If not, is there anything about the mapping space that is attractive to you – or is it just an afterthought?

A: Not so much cartography, but I am very interested in sensor and geospatial data! I am kind of a geo-nerd. I took geology and geography courses in college and loved them. I actually considered switching majors to geology, but then saw how almost all the jobs were in oil/gas industries, and I knew that wasn’t for me.

But I have always enjoyed maps, and have a special relationship with them. As an only child on road trips, I would look at maps all the time as we traveled. When I was at AstralAR, I was playing with drone radio sensor data, and then was exposed to multi-dimensional spatial data for the first time. When I started to work on ML projects that would predict locations of items, that’s when I started to get a deeper understanding of this 3D world that we live in!

A lot of my hands-on work has been on sensor identification and understanding, like knowing there’s a very small range of amplitudes for different firearms. Telling apart a .45 from a .32 caliber weapon is a small change in amplitude, but we can easily differentiate them from other noises, like hand claps or stuff like that. There’s a natural connection between maps and sensor work, so geography is definitely more than an afterthought for me.

Q: Now for something a little lighter – any hobbies you want to share with our audience? What do you do for fun?

A: I’m a really huge hockey fan, and one of my grad capstone projects was predicting hockey goals. I’d love to see the NHL take on embedded sensors for player body positions, and take an exploratory look on the various positions players are in when they score really cool goals. I think there’s a lot of interesting location data out there that we have increased access to as IoT has grown.

Beyond hockey, I have a few personal interests, but it’s tough to pursue a lot of hobbies during a pandemic! I know I’d be kayaking a lot more if we weren’t dealing with COVID-19 right now!

Q: Had you ever heard of GeoHipster before I contacted you? We’re … kind of a niche publication. 🙂

A: No, actually, but I checked out your website and I like your stuff! I noticed that it didn’t feel like it was all boring GIS colors, and I was really drawn to that aesthetic.

Q: As I write this, you’re currently looking for work – I hope that doesn’t last too long! But describe the lucky company that’s going to get you on their payroll. What do they do? What don’t they do? Where do they operate?

A: My ideal employer is anywhere that truly takes accountability and transparency in AI to heart. I’m not picky about specifics; there’s so many interesting kinds of data I can work with. I just don’t want to be hampered with bringing up ethical issues all the time. I hope,with everything that has happened lately, there are more organizations that are truly open to being accountable and transparent, even if it’s at the cost of losing profits.

Q: Any advice for our readers, or aspiring data scientists?

A: If you’re an aspiring data scientist, when you’re dealing with data about real people, make sure to frame your work the way you would if the data was about your friends and family. We need to sometimes step away from thinking technically and preserving neutrality, and fix problems that well-intentioned tech has created or made worse. It’s not enough to just be ethical or work on responsible AI; we want to get closer to creating an equity utopia: designing for a world we want to live in, and understanding that historical data almost never reflects that. Every time we use historical data, we’re relying on imperfect humans from the past and their decisions. And that’s difficult when we’re trying to predict the future about a changing society. The earlier you do this, the easier it will be to be transparent and think about fairness in your work.

Steven Romalewski to GeoHipster: “If our maps help shape the coverage, I’m thrilled”

Steven RomalewskiSteven Romalewski directs the Mapping Service at the Center for Urban Research at the Graduate Center of the City University of NY (CUNY). The Mapping Service engages with foundations, agencies, businesses, nonprofits, and CUNY researchers to use spatial analysis techniques in applied research projects. They specialize in online applications providing intuitive access to powerful data sets, displayed visually through interactive maps and other formats.

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Steven Romalewski
Steven Romalewski | Credit: CUNY Graduate Center

Steven Romalewski directs the Mapping Service at the Center for Urban Research at the Graduate Center of the City University of NY (CUNY). The Mapping Service engages with foundations, agencies, businesses, nonprofits, and CUNY researchers to use spatial analysis techniques in applied research projects. They specialize in online applications providing intuitive access to powerful data sets, displayed visually through interactive maps and other formats.

Steven was interviewed for GeoHipster by Atanas Entchev.

Q: How (why) did you get into GIS?

A: In the late 1980s/early 1990s when I worked at a nonprofit environmental and consumer advocacy group (the New York Public Interest Research Group; NYPIRG), my boss was starting to use GIS for our work to help residents who were living near toxic waste dumps. Eventually he left to launch his own company using GIS in the environmental consulting industry. But he sparked my interest in GIS, and by the early 1990s I was using MapInfo to support NYPIRG’s environmental research and organizing.

Soon after that I was fortunate to be accepted as a Revson Fellow at Columbia University (the program no longer exists, but it was intended for mid-career urban activists). I spent the year exploring technology for community organizing (not just GIS but also the burgeoning World Wide Web, email, relational databases, etc). I enrolled in Columbia’s urban planning graduate program and for the next two years learned much more about GIS, census data, spatial analysis, and urban planning generally. All told it was a terrific experience learning about New York City, how cities around the world had developed, and acquiring GIS and data visualization skills and knowledge in the planning discipline.

While I was at Columbia, a colleague and I at NYPIRG created the Community Mapping Assistance Project (CMAP). It was a nonprofit entrepreneurial venture – we provided GIS services for a modest fee to other nonprofit groups in New York and across the country. CMAP lasted about eight years and we made maps and analyzed spatial data for hundreds of groups, large and small, in all areas of nonprofit work: education, health care, transportation planning and advocacy, environmental groups, you name it. And we created several online mapping applications for “clients” (including NYPIRG), ranging from online maps that provided subway directions in New York City, identified elected officials based on a user’s street address, visualized green infrastructure, and more (several years before Google Maps, etc!).

Q: Tell us about your current job — overall duties, daily routine…

A: Since 2006 I’ve directed the CUNY Mapping Service at the City University of New York’s Graduate Center. The Mapping Service is part of the Center for Urban Research, one of the academic/applied research centers at the graduate school.

My job involves lots of things. I work with my staff colleagues (Will Field, our senior application developer, and Valerie Bauer, a recent graduate of Lehman College’s graduate-level geography program) on our projects, collaborate with our Center for Urban Research director John Mollenkopf on research initiatives, and help other CUNY colleagues integrate GIS into their work.

I’m the point person who interacts with our partner organizations outside CUNY including nonprofit institutions such as the New York Academy of Medicine or the American Museum of Natural History, national civil rights groups such as The Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights, or government agencies such as the NYC Department of Homeless Services of the NYC Campaign Finance Board.

We’ve developed projects with each of these organizations, either online mapping applications, static/printed maps, or services such as geocoding. I also manage our funding for this work, whether it’s grant support from philanthropic foundations, contractual payments for our services, or both.

In addition to managing all this work, I still use GIS on almost a daily basis, usually ArcGIS but sometimes MapInfo or QGIS. I work with the Graduate Center’s IT staff and my colleague Will Field to manage our web server environment. I help maintain our data resources.

Q: Tell us about the tools you use in your job. Where do you stand on the open source vs proprietary debate?

A: We use whatever works 😊.  We’re mainly an Esri shop as far as desktop GIS goes. I started using Arc products in the mid-1990s through nonprofit grant support from Esri. We’re fortunate that CUNY – the nation’s largest urban public university – has site licenses for pretty much all of Esri’s software products (CUNY comprises more than 20 individual colleges attended by more than 275,000 students, and GIS is used by students, professors, and researchers throughout the system.)

But we also continue to use MapInfo, mainly for geocoding and data management. We use QGIS and Postgres/PostGIS. Students working at our Center have used the spatial features of R to analyze data, and our colleagues at the Graduate Center make extensive use of R and QGIS as well as Esri’s software suite.

For our online mapping applications, we use a variety of platforms and technologies. Most of our applications are built around Leaflet, but some use OpenLayers. The Graduate Center server environment provides us with access to SQL Server, but we’re starting to use PostGIS for our online maps. Although we have a local instance of ArcGIS Server and we use ArcGIS Online to provide spatial data sets for our online maps, more and more we are using other options such as GeoJSON, SQL Server’s spatial features, and other online providers such as Mapbox and Carto.

Q: Do decision-makers pay attention to your work? I just learned (ht Joshua Stevens) that John Snow knew water was the source 5 whole years before he commissioned his cholera map from cartographer Charles Cheffins.The map was used to convince authorities and the public. Do today’s authorities listen? According to anecdotal evidence, policy makers in New Zealand take the advice of science researchers ~80% of the time, versus less than 20% in the US. What is your experience?

A: We tend to work on projects that decision-makers need, or that organizations want to leverage in order to make the case to decision-makers. In our work, decision-makers typically pay attention and respond to the maps we’ve produced (either for our partners, or in our own research).

For example, we provide maps for the NYC Department of Homeless Services that visualize the locations of shelters and facilities providing temporary residences, along with nearby services such as schools, other housing developments, parks, etc. In recent years these maps were used at the highest levels of policy debate to help restructure how New York City addresses the homeless crisis.

A major project we’ve been working on since 2016 has been the 2020 Census. We created an online map for census stakeholders across the country to prioritize census outreach and track the progress of census self-response (originally the self-response phase was going to be a month and a half, but due to COVID-19 it ended up being extended over 8 months). Our map was used by state agencies and local governments coordinating census planning (the State of Hawaii embedded the map at their census website), Census Bureau staff used the map, the House Oversight Committee and other congressional subcommittees referenced the map in news events and reports about the census, foundations supporting census stakeholders used our map to help guide their funding, and the many hundreds (thousands?) of groups across the country leading the effort to boost census self-response relied on our map, often on a daily basis. (The Census Bureau had several online map applications of its own for the 2020 Census, but ours combined all the data and features – and more – from the Bureau’s maps into one website, was easier to use, and was more flexible and responsive to community needs.)

Another local example is our collaboration with the New York Academy of Medicine. The Academy’s “Age Friendly NYC” program contacted us a few years ago for help in visualizing demographic patterns of the 65+ population across New York City, compared with services and other programs of interest to this population. We created the “IMAGE NYC” online map to support the Academy’s work in this area, and the map has been used extensively by philanthropic foundations, city agencies, and nonprofit groups.

Q: Authorities were “surprised” when Hurricane Katrina flooded New Orleans, even though spatial analysis models had been predicting such an event for decades. Have things changed since 2005? To judge from a recent Sharpie map action, they have not. Why are we even doing what we do if the consumers of our output — the policy makers — ignore our product? I sometimes ask myself “What’s the point?” Don’t you?

A: Maps are incredibly efficient visuals (when done right). And the analysis of spatial patterns in data is fascinating and powerful. But an effective map or analytical model doesn’t really matter if the policy makers aren’t paying attention or don’t want to pay attention. I think that’s best left for a larger discussion about politics and the potential for sustained community organizing and advocacy to make a difference (whether maps are involved or not).

Q: I got into GIS from planning, where GIS was lauded as a technology which would evolve beyond mere mapping into a decision-support system, and ultimately become a decision-making system. Are we there yet? Will we ever get there?

A: GIS-made maps, spatial analysis models, and online interactive mapping applications are pretty ubiquitous these days. It seems to me these efforts to understand real-world spatial patterns and trends have become integral to so many industries and government infrastructure. Take COVID-19 as an example. Almost from the start of the pandemic, organizations such as Johns Hopkins Institute and The New York Times used maps to visualize the spread of the virus. When New York City started publishing local data on positivity rates and other metrics, journalists and the public demanded that the data be mapped and that the city share its data publicly using small-area spatial units (the city is using ZIP Codes, but there’s an ongoing debate – at least on Twitter! – about the pros and cons of ZIP Codes versus neighborhood areas, census tracts, etc.). When the vaccine(s) are available, I’m sure GIS will play a key role in determining how it (or they) will be distributed locally and globally (Esri is already touting this.)

Q: You are a media celebrity in the area of election mapping, census mapping, COVID mapping, voter registration. From 1984 when you appeared on the front page of the New York Times, through your NYT analysis of the AOC surprise upset victory in the 2018 primary, to November 2020 where you offer voter turnout analysis for the Gotham Gazette and your FAQNYC podcast, you are the go-to person for in-depth discussion of all things public policy/geospatial. Has CNN called yet? John King’s magic map wall is getting long in the tooth… Would you say yes if they called?

A: One thing I learned at NYPIRG was the importance of the media, and how to present your work to journalists so they would want to use it for their stories.

You’re generous to say that I’m a media celebrity, but I’m much more interested in making sure our maps get covered rather than me. I work hard to make sure journalists are familiar with our work and how maps can help them report on stories. I’m not as interested in getting quoted myself (I had my share of that for the 20 or so years I worked at NYPIRG – I was quoted in news articles, TV reports, and radio all the time), but these days if our maps are cited or if they help shape the coverage, I’m thrilled.

Also, my work with GIS at the CUNY Graduate Center (just like at NYPIRG) is very much a collaborative effort. I might be the one getting quoted in an article, but we couldn’t do this work without the support and involvement of lots of people and organizations: so many folks at the Graduate Center itself and CUNY overall, our partners for whom we make the maps, our funders supporting our work, etc. 

One point to note about media coverage is that it is sometimes hard to get reporters interested in the maps themselves, partly (I think) because maps, online or otherwise, are so pervasive. But we’ve had some notable exceptions. In 2016 when we launched an online map for the NYC Campaign Finance Board showing the spatial patterns of campaign contributions for NYC’s 2017 municipal elections, a New York Times reporter was interested. The great thing for me was that our map itself was the story. The map made it easy for New Yorkers to see where funding was coming for local elections, and that was important enough to merit coverage in the paper of record.

An earlier example was in 2000 when the Times covered our CMAP project. It was newsworthy enough for the Times to write about how nonprofits in New York at the time were benefiting from “detailed maps using sophisticated Geographic Information Systems software” to support their advocacy work. It was wonderful to see that in the paper.

If CNN wants to improve on their election maps – or any other maps – we’d be more than happy to help them out!

Q: What do you do for fun? Any hipstery hobbies we should know about?

A: My teenage kids would be the first to tell you I’m decidedly un-hipstery. But a fun thing I’ve been doing for the past few years is (re)learning guitar. I grew up in a musical family and I learned piano at a young age, and I tried my hand at being a teenage rock n roll guitar player. After high school I put all that aside, but then my son’s middle school offered a music class. He needed to pick an instrument and chose guitar, so I thought I’d start taking lessons with him. Now I’ve got the bug, and I’m learning as much as I can about fingerstyle guitar (focused on the blues in all its variations and music theory and technique more generally). It’s a blast. I really love it, and it provides a great sense of accomplishment and helps keep me sharp (fingerpicking is hard, but really rewarding!).

Q: On closing, any words of wisdom for our global readership? 

A: Plan ahead, but try to live each day to the fullest, whatever gets thrown in your path.

Jennifer Maravillas: “Finding orientation in a place through movements of my hand gives me a feeling of empathy and wonder at the world. “

Born, 1983 Salt Lake City, UT. Resides in Brooklyn, NY. Jennifer Maravillas is a Brooklyn based visual artist. She creates portraits of our land in media ranging from found paper to watercolor. Her aim in this work is to capture universalities and connections across disparate communities by studying social structures from histories, landscapes, and visual design. In 2015, she completed 71 Square Miles: a map of Brooklyn compiled from trash she collected on each block to represent the cultures and voices of the community. She’s continuing her mapping work with her long-term project, 232 Square Miles in which she will walk the remainder of New York City while collecting trash as well as exploring connections throughout historic maps and data. Her background includes studies in anthropology, painting, graphic design, cartography, and mass communication. Jennifer also works as a freelance illustrator creating color-filled works about life and the world. For artwork sales information, please contact the artist through her website. Visit the artist’s website:  www.jenmaravillas.com

Jennifer was interviewed by Jonah Adkins

Tell us about yourself

I’m a visual artist currently residing in Brooklyn, NY, though my passion for exploring has led me to live all over the U.S. My art practice is centered around the land and can take many forms- as large painted or collaged maps, landscape paintings, and increasingly in book format. Exploring both the world and artistic media are correlating passions that get me out of bed in the morning.

How’d you get into mapping?

I rekindled my love for maps while working on a personal project in about 2010. It was a now unfinished children’s book about a little girl that learns to fly planes inspired by a good friend. She flies above San Francisco and I decided to color each block as an homage to the psychedelic city. I was hooked. After that I painted a few similar works and realized the physicality of creating a map by hand was an exercise in meditation on that space and history. Flying in planes or staring out of car windows was my favorite thing to do as a kid and this reconnected that love for really appreciating and seeing the land. It’s now become a mode of operating in the world- in my everyday practice as well as travels. These maps have sometimes taken the format of cityscapes while under commission but in my personal work the goal is to connect the medium to the place conceptually.

Over on instagram, i was fortunate enough to see you create your 2018 election map project. How’d it come about?

I created a map called Party Line for BallotBox https://www.ballotboxart.com/ – a show curated by Skylar Smith exploring voting rights that was intended to exhibit in Metro Hall of Louisville, KY but now is on view at 21C Louisville. The open call asked artists to explore voting rights to celebrate 2020 as the centennial of the 19th Amendment, the 55th Anniversary of the Voting Rights, and the presidential election. 

images from https://www.ballotboxart.com/
images from https://www.ballotboxart.com/
images from https://www.ballotboxart.com/

Since this is also a census year I decided to celebrate the right to vote by learning about one aspect of voting which has yet to evolve: the drawing of our congressional district maps. Party Line is a 99” x 55” map of the United States painted in watercolor. Each county is colored in hues of reds, blues, and yellows representing three datasets which show the two methods of gerrymandering- cracking and packing. These colors represent total votes from the 2018 congressional election in each county represented by reds or blues and the system of redistricting by state represented by yellows. Two congressional maps from 2011-2017 are then drawn over the the watercolor in lines.

Here’s my artist statement on the project:

“The United States of America is a country of borders and divisions, though the demarcations between places are often abstract and fluid. This is a concept reinforced by our centuries old tradition of redistricting in which politicians draw lines that represent us as citizen voters. These maps, often drawn behind closed doors, are a work of art to be considered. These lines tell the stories of our country through the imbalance of power and evolution of norms. They represent the redlining of votes and tools of authority wielded in the interests of politicians working toward staying in office, as opposed to representing their constituents. One person, one vote is an ideal we have never attained in the election of congress.”

It was mesmerizing to watch your technique throughout the process. Can you elaborate on your technique and methodology?

This was the first map I’ve ever painted that is quite this rich in data. This process was 100% a learning curve. Viewing the end product as more of a pastiche and compilation of maps instead of an infographic gave me a bit of confidence. My goal was to show county results contrasted with lines of the congressional districts to highlight cracking, packing, and also more generally- the entire country as this network of divisions and connections. 

I compiled all of the 2018 election data onto county maps of each state for reference in determining the hue and value for each.

I scaled the US Gov county map in QGIS and then Illustrator, printed it on a large format printer, and traced it all onto a 99” x 55” roll of watercolor paper.

Working across the United States I painted each range of values at a time.

I completed the painting in a very focused three months.

January 13
January 17
January 30
February 3
February 6

Where can we see it?

The exhibit was set to open March 2020, the opening night was cancelled as the country locked down and was never opened to the public. After the shooting of Breonna Taylor and subsequent marches, Metro Hall has remained closed (it is the seat of the government in Louisville, containing the mayor’s office etc.) Just last month the museum / hotel 21C Louisville generously moved all of the work to their galleries where it will be up until January of 2021.

From 21C Hotel Instagram

What other map stuff are you interested in?

It’s been fascinating to learn more about the culture around mapping- from the technical GIS to those collecting, archiving, and sharing historic maps. Ours is such an interesting time when we have better access to historic maps online and we have never understood the earth so clearly. I’m really interested in all maps as archives of vernacular and viewpoints of self and others. 

My work is in flux at the moment. My main project for almost the last ten years has been to walk around NYC collecting trash to compile onto large scale block by block maps of each borough. I’ve finished and exhibited 71 Square Miles, a map of Brooklyn. The others are now indefinitely paused because of the pandemic. I will finish those but plan to leave and come back another time when I don’t have to worry about not getting sick quite so much. 

71 Square Miles
71 Square Miles
71 Square Miles

I’m not entirely sure what types of mapping I’d like to do next but it will hopefully involve bridging aspects of our communal lives with the land and each other.

The intersection of  art and maps can be tough for people trained in mapping, but not design. Tell us about your experience fusing them, coming from a design background?

The physicality of creating maps is what draws me to the work. Finding orientation in a place through movements of my hand gives me a feeling of empathy and wonder at the world. In a larger sense I find a connection between my art practice and maps in the design of my life. Though I was trained as a graphic designer and use those skills regularly, those principles transcend all of our lives down to what we pay attention to, how we spend our time, and how we move through the world. Mapping has given me the focus to see the world and I’ve been privileged to share that vision through colors.

Any inspirations or advice to give our technical mapping audience on interjecting art into their work?

Visualizing a process or the feeling of an end product is typically where my projects begin, though I think the main aspect of realizing any artistic practice is to be aware of what actions most inspire you. My goal is often to think of the craziest / largest / most difficult / most repetitive way to represent an idea which also utilizes a medium representing the concept. Media is where our ideas meet the viewers of our work and it’s difficult but satisfying to find a connection between the reasons for choosing one over another.